[09:00] Fei Yeh: Ooo movie night. :) [09:00] Mic Bowman: or something like that [09:00] Mic Bowman: i was trying to get the web content on a prim working [09:00] Mic Bowman: you need to turn on the automimetype detection in your viewer [09:01] Kite Hallison: hello [09:01] Mic Bowman: hi kite [09:01] Aaron Duffy: Hi Kite [09:01] Kite Hallison: Hell Mic [09:01] Kite Hallison: hello Aaron [09:01] Fei Yeh is Offline [09:02] Mic Bowman: hi aaron [09:02] Aaron Duffy: hello again [09:03] Mic Bowman: hi justin [09:03] Justin Clark-Casey: Hi Mic, hello folks [09:03] Aaron Duffy: Hi Justin [09:03] Kite Hallison: Hello justin [09:04] Justin Clark-Casey: One day I'm going to have to get a better computer so that the sound of the fire isn't drowned out by my laptop fans whirring away :) [09:04] Justin Clark-Casey: /breaks the fourth wall [09:04] Mic Bowman: which is hotter? [09:04] Justin Clark-Casey: ha. it's a tossup [09:05] Mic Bowman: there have been a bunch of instabilities recently [09:05] Mic Bowman: let me just go through the three things thatwe're working on... [09:05] Mic Bowman: first... there are a number of improvements for cable beach [09:06] Mic Bowman: this includes work on authorizing inventory services so you can bring your own inventory into the world [09:06] Mic Bowman: it also include more robust support for specifying the openid [09:06] Mic Bowman: so... you could set up a login using your osgrid account like this: [09:07] Mic Bowman: http://grid.sciencesim.com/login?openid_identifier=http://osgrid.org:8002/users/Mic_Bowman [09:07] Mic Bowman: you can bookmark that link and use it to login [09:07] Mic Bowman: eventually (in a few weeks) you'll be able to bring in your osgrid inventory securely that way [09:08] Justin Clark-Casey: a one time transfer or dynamic access? [09:08] Mic Bowman: the second big change that has been causing problems is that we are tryi8ng a bunch of patches to reduce memory [09:08] Mic Bowman: justin, dynamic access [09:08] Mic Bowman: authenticated each time you come in [09:08] Justin Clark-Casey: I take it this requires explicit trust from osgrid to sciencesim? [09:08] Mic Bowman: correct [09:09] Mic Bowman: on the memory side... [09:09] Rob Willis: morning all [09:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hi rob [09:09] Mic Bowman: there are two big patches we're testing [09:09] Mic Bowman: well... the patches aren't that big but they potentially change important things [09:09] Mic Bowman: the first... we've found that opensim does not release memory when a user logs out... [09:10] Mic Bowman: for reasonably small regions.. the amount of memory leaked is relatively small... but for complex regions, it can be as much as 100's of megabytes [09:11] Mic Bowman: the second area we're working to fix is optimizing the memory the physics engine uses [09:11] Mic Bowman: we've seen pretty significant reductions by using a mesh "dictionary" to compress the information that is shared with the physics engine [09:12] Mic Bowman: chamomile region was running about 2.6G of memory (beforeany user connects) and it is now running around 1.5G [09:12] Robert Adams: the collision meshes add up when you have 100K+ prims [09:12] Mic Bowman: so about 40% reduction for that region [09:12] Mic Bowman: the benefits depend on the number of meshes that are common [09:13] Justin Clark-Casey: that's all very nice. Have all the previous patches by Dan been incorporated? [09:13] Mic Bowman: 2 of 3 i think [09:13] Mic Bowman: and the 3rd was "optional" [09:13] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm hoping that now that jhurliman is in core there will be less opportunity for bottleneck [09:13] Mic Bowman: i think john was going to look at one more as well [09:14] Mic Bowman: the llclientview and ode patches will be submitted today or monday [09:14] Mic Bowman: there are two more memory patches coming [09:14] Mic Bowman: the third (and biggest) area of instability is in the scene update prioritizaiton [09:14] Mic Bowman: when you log into a region, the prims are sent to you in what is not quite but almost random order [09:15] Justin Clark-Casey: ha [09:15] Mic Bowman: (there is some ordering... but in practice the indeterminancy of the avatars position almost always queuest them incorrectly) [09:15] Rob Willis: yeah i still cant see alot of things here [09:15] Mic Bowman: the patch will prioritize based on current position and update the priorites when your position changes [09:16] Mic Bowman: the code... however (as rob noticed) is broken when too many avatars enter a region [09:16] Mic Bowman: packets start to get dropped at (abnormally) high rates [09:16] Mic Bowman: and scene updates are not reliable [09:17] Mic Bowman: so... the sum of it is 1) we're turning off the scene prioritization in most regions and 2) bear with us on the CB changes (please) [09:18] Mic Bowman: and when the memory patches are all submitted to opensim, you'll be able to double the number of prims in a region for the same memory [09:18] Rob Willis: an interesting thing is the two clocks here appear and then disappear randomly [09:18] J.H Chen is Offline [09:18] Justin Clark-Casey: are any of these patches going to be accompanaied by unit tests, if they are unit testable? Without them there is a high opportunity for very hard to detect and fix regrressions [09:19] Mic Bowman: you're getting some updates for the hands of the clock as they more [09:19] Mic Bowman: justin, none of the behavior should change for the memory tests... [09:19] Mic Bowman: but yes, we'll try to provide specific tests for the dictionary [09:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ok, thanks :) [09:20] Mic Bowman: though the ODE unit tests should catch any problems given the level where the patching is occuring [09:21] Justin Clark-Casey: just fyi, I'm thinknig next week of proposing a fixed release schedule, with release 0.6.7 coming fairly soon and subsequent releases maybe every 3 months [09:22] Mic Bowman: that would be good... [09:22] Justin Clark-Casey: this probably won't help much with stability of releases in the short term but it would be more predictable, esp. if people adjust their dev schedules accordingly [09:22] Mic Bowman: any other topics for this morning? [09:23] Lightswitch: lights on [09:23] Lightswitch: lights off [09:23] Justin Clark-Casey grins [09:23] Mic Bowman: has anyone tried the megaregion code yet? [09:23] Robert Adams: we're awake [09:24] Aaron Duffy: I tried but it didn't seem to work. I think I'm not far enough up the trunk [09:24] Mic Bowman: i was going to try on the yellowstone regions [09:24] Mic Bowman: the "load in order" is more of a problem since i don't use an ini file for region info [09:25] Mic Bowman: which i suppose means i need to figure out a naming scheme for my region.xml files [09:25] Aaron Duffy: the ini replaces the xml doesn't it? [09:25] Mic Bowman: yes... [09:26] Justin Clark-Casey: afaik they are both still valid ways of configuring [09:26] Mic Bowman: the xml files is how we manage all of our regions [09:26] Justin Clark-Casey: any deprecation schedule is unclear - I suspect both will continue to remain valid as all the work of parsing them is done by the nini library [09:27] Mic Bowman: much easier to change the mapping of regions to simulatiors [09:27] Justin Clark-Casey: I wish everything in that file wasn't an attribute though [09:27] Mic Bowman: i would prefer to not have the file re-written [09:27] Robert Adams: and since the xml was always writtten out with LFs, the ini files are easier to read [09:27] Aaron Duffy: I normally use xml, but I set up two new regions with an ini for the megaregion. They start up and run fine, but I still "blip" when crossiing between them so I don't think they are a megaregion [09:28] Justin Clark-Casey: doesn't sound like it [09:28] Mic Bowman: justin, do megaregions have to be square? [09:28] Aaron Duffy: I read they could be any shape... even have gaps [09:28] Justin Clark-Casey: that's a good question. I don't know for sure - I suspect not though [09:29] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, I think that's right [09:29] Mic Bowman: the gaps would be nice... [09:29] Justin Clark-Casey: as long as they are contiguous I think [09:29] Aaron Duffy: hmmm... thinking about setting up a grid sized chess board [09:29] Mic Bowman: one thing we could do for scisim users is to start proviing an ini file for the full 5x5 region [09:30] Justin Clark-Casey: :D Monster chess pieces - I like how you think [09:30] Mic Bowman: set up as a megaregion [09:30] Mic Bowman: then as a region gets busy enough, you can move it into its own simulator [09:30] Mic Bowman: with the megaregion, there is very little overhead for having an all ocean region [09:30] Aaron Duffy: that would be nice. I saw one of the opensim dev's is providing a standalone release that defaults to a 512x512 region [09:31] Robert Adams: and when the performance patches are in a region can have 100K prims... makes a megaregion with stuff on it very useful [09:31] Mic Bowman: 5x5 plaza in one big region [09:32] Aaron Duffy: Justin... are oars working on megaregions? [09:33] Justin Clark-Casey: I heard a report that they do, though I haven't had confirmation [09:33] Doug Osborn is Online [09:33] Mic Bowman: on a per region basis or across the whole megaregion [09:34] Justin Clark-Casey: I can imagine that they would - there's nothing in the oar module that ties it into a fixed size region [09:34] Justin Clark-Casey: depends how the region is being modelled in the server I think [09:34] Mic Bowman: terrain? [09:34] Justin Clark-Casey: whether it's regarded as one giant region or still lots of 256 ones [09:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, that's the bigger question. I heard that it works though the source isn't very unreliable [09:35] Justin Clark-Casey: not had an opportunity yet to test myself [09:35] Justin Clark-Casey: the source being the person in this case [09:35] Justin Clark-Casey: er, isn't very reliable I mean [09:35] Doug Osborn: aloha all [09:36] Mic Bowman: hi doug [09:36] Mic Bowman: i thought you were out today? [09:36] Doug Osborn: i thopught so to [09:36] Justin Clark-Casey: hi doug [09:36] Doug Osborn: hey justin :) [09:36] Doug Osborn: i heard you talking about the megarregion stuff? [09:36] Mic Bowman: yes [09:37] Mic Bowman: brb [09:39] Mic Bowman: back... [09:39] Justin Clark-Casey: looking very grey today, doug [09:39] Mic Bowman: i'm looking for some feedback on a usage... [09:40] Doug Osborn: i've had some texture issues lately.... [09:40] Doug Osborn: and my 3 browsers show mw different stuff..... [09:40] Mic Bowman: maybe this is a question for rob... how many of your studentys have facebook accounts? [09:41] Mic Bowman: do you use fb for any instructional support? [09:42] Aaron Duffy: Here we don't use FB academically... I'm discouraged from "friending" my students. Our students' email is all gmail-based though [09:42] Simple Clock: The time is 9:37 [09:42] Mic Bowman: so google accounts would be better? [09:42] Lightswitch: lights on [09:43] Mic Bowman: i need to figure out if the google authentication can be passed in [09:43] Mic Bowman: and if anyone wants to help with the cable beach launcher... [09:44] Mic Bowman: doug? when was the last time you wrote C#? [09:44] Doug Osborn: I was hoping to start working with the launcher last week Mic but I got sidtracked [09:44] Mic Bowman: :-) [09:44] Rob Willis: it is similar to another launcher project [09:44] Mic Bowman: which one? [09:44] Rob Willis: let me check [09:45] Mic Bowman: the rezzme launcher is too hard to get working (too many dependencies caused by python) [09:45] Mic Bowman: rezzable supposedly has one for heritage grid, but i haven't found the code [09:46] Rob Willis: there is a project i saw called opensim launcher [09:46] Rob Willis: i tried it and it waas buggy [09:46] Rob Willis: uses a file for the paths [09:46] Mic Bowman: the two features we want for the CB launcher are 1) better support for multiple viewers and 2) the ability to pass in a location [09:46] Mic Bowman: the second of those is relatively easy.. the first is harder [09:46] Rob Willis: however everytime you use it, it rewrites over the settings file [09:47] Rob Willis: so you have to recreate that file [09:47] Mic Bowman: does the meerkat viewer have support for multiple instances? they have included "transparent" grid-to-grid teleports... but i don't know how to drive it externally [09:48] Rob Willis: it is an xml file and can be configured from a gui, [09:48] Mic Bowman: do you have alink? [09:49] Rob Willis: http://lab.newworldgrid.com/index.php/OpenSim_Launcher [09:49] Mic Bowman: thanks [09:50] Rob Willis: not sure if the source is available, i remember wanting to fix it, but couldnt [09:51] Mic Bowman: i think i tried that one also [09:52] Justin Clark-Casey: btw Mic, do you publish the transcript of this meeting? [09:52] Mic Bowman: i don't [09:52] Mic Bowman: we could certainly start doing that... [09:52] Rob Willis: that would be great [09:52] Justin Clark-Casey: it would be good for reference [09:53] Mic Bowman: i'll grab today's transcript & put it on the wiki [09:53] Mic Bowman: i suppose the next thing to do is to create a logger bot... [09:54] Mic Bowman: or maybe we can use aaron's twitter feed [09:54] Mic Bowman: :-) [09:54] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, one that auto-publishes [09:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm sure one must exist in SL already [09:54] Aaron Duffy: Can we name it BigBroBot? [09:54] Justin Clark-Casey: heh, there is a twitter opensim module out there somewhere [09:54] Mic Bowman: as in a module that publishes twitter feeds in world? or the other way? [09:54] Justin Clark-Casey: I know world -> twitter, not sure about reverse [09:55] Aaron Duffy: It could easily be done both ways. that is one bloated twitter client though [09:55] Mic Bowman: :-) [09:55] Justin Clark-Casey: ha ha ha ha [09:56] Mic Bowman: personally... i think opensim is a great IRC client [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey: if we each had an associated twitter account we could just spam this entire discussion to twitter - that would be scary [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey: really? I think there's a lack of functionality for that :) [09:56] Robert Adams: the commercial, youth virtual worlds should have SMS connectivity. After watching my younguns stay connected with theeir friends no matter where they are [09:57] Robert Adams: spam to gtalk if everyone is using google accounts [09:58] Mic Bowman: i got about half way into some additions to the IRC module that would let it connect to multiple channels & bridge them to different in world channels... [09:58] Mic Bowman: decided i had better things to do with my evenings... [09:58] Justin Clark-Casey: :) [09:58] Mic Bowman: any other random topics for today? [09:59] Doug Osborn: ummmm can we get out prim size unvcapped? [09:59] Mic Bowman: i think i have the prim size on all these regions set at 256m [09:59] Mic Bowman: you want bigger? [09:59] Doug Osborn: the cable beach regions i can build in seem to have the config file limit set back to 10M [10:00] Doug Osborn: 256 is fine :) [10:00] Mic Bowman: i'll check to see if i screwed up something in the settings [10:00] Aaron Duffy: with megaregions that is going to start feeling tiny at 256M [10:01] Mic Bowman: (or if the settings just changed the default without documentation) [10:01] Justin Clark-Casey: not afair [10:01] Mic Bowman: :-) [10:01] Doug Osborn: lol [10:01] Mic Bowman: not that is ever happened before... [10:01] Doug Osborn: when i see a megatregion I'll think about bigger prims.... [10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: well true :) [10:02] Doug Osborn: but i think we are planning very small avatars and boats for our 9 region ocean space :) [10:03] Aaron Duffy: really the relative size of our avatars and the little "m" next to the measurements are the only things defining size here [10:03] Rob Willis: when changes are made to opensim svn are they added to the sciencesim straight away? [10:04] Mic Bowman: no [10:05] Doug Osborn: yes Mic how soon are we going to be able to test justins Iar transfers to Sciencesim? [10:05] Rob Willis: so llRot2Euler() is not working properly in sciencesim? [10:05] Mic Bowman: we have been keeping more closely in sync over the last couple weeks because the cable beach code is using some of the more recent opensim features [10:05] Rob Willis: ok [10:05] Mic Bowman: i believe we just did a merge yesterday... [10:05] Mic Bowman: we need to rebuild the binaries & resync the git repository [10:06] Mic Bowman: in general i prefer to stay off the most recent versions in order to find a version that is more stable [10:06] Aaron Duffy: I've been reading about remote tracking branches and cherry picking using git. I think that is a way individuals could update their cloned sciencesim repo from the opensim repo [10:06] Mic Bowman: stability has suffered for other reasons though [10:06] Rob Willis: k [10:06] Mic Bowman: for some of our internal regions, i've been just applying patches like what aaron describes [10:06] Justin Clark-Casey: Mic: The other reasons you talked about earlier or something else? [10:07] Mic Bowman: the reasons we discussed eaarlier [10:07] Mic Bowman: lots of experimental code [10:07] Mic Bowman: trying to fix other scalability problems [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: your code? [10:07] Mic Bowman: yes [10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhhh, so it's you guys fault! I knew it :) [10:08] Mic Bowman: well... i'll start with the assumption that its my fault [10:08] Mic Bowman: :-) [10:08] Justin Clark-Casey: that's very humble of you [10:08] Mic Bowman: and rather realistic [10:08] Mic Bowman: i'm very good at breaking things [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, well the whole edifice isn't the most stable of things to start off with [10:09] Justin Clark-Casey: I don't think we're going to be removing that alpha tag any time too soon [10:09] Mic Bowman: well... its not too bad either [10:09] Mic Bowman: considering the complexity [10:10] Mic Bowman: ok all... i need to head off to the next meeting [10:10] Justin Clark-Casey: I'll accept that judgement - I don't have all that many reference points for this complexity level [10:11] Mic Bowman: transcript will be posted here: http://www.sciencesim.com/wiki/doku.php/users/sep18 [10:11] Justin Clark-Casey: cool, thanks mic