[09:08] Connecting to in-world Voice Chat... [09:08] Connected [09:08] Shenlei Winkler is Online [09:09] Voice not available at your current location [09:09] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. Just flying over here I realized that I need to be in world more and go look at some of the great stuff out there [09:09] Justin Clark-Casey: it's an irony that I don't often do that - probably a lot less than most people [09:09] Mic Bowman: g'morning [09:09] Justin Clark-Casey: hey mic [09:09] Robert Adams: morning Mic [09:10] Mic Bowman: justin i've noticed that you could probably sleep more too [09:10] Mic Bowman: at least given the hours i see you on IRC [09:10] Mic Bowman: just us this morning? [09:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, it looks late but to be honest I don't start until a bit later in the morning. However, occasionally I end up severely running over and pay for it the next day [09:11] Mic Bowman: :-) [09:11] Justin Clark-Casey: today my brain is being propped up by large amounts of caffeine for instance :) [09:11] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, seems pretty quiet today [09:11] Mic Bowman: that's probably good... i'm buried [09:12] Mic Bowman: dan finished the optimization for pinned memory last night [09:12] Mic Bowman: i haven't had a chance to test it... but it removes the pinned memory used by ODE and uses the unmanaged heap instead [09:12] Mic Bowman: that should make the mono garbage collector MUCH happier [09:13] Justin Clark-Casey: excellent stuff [09:14] Mic Bowman: and Jim Greensky has a patch he's supposed to submit to mantis that removes the refs to llClientView so it can be garbage collected [09:14] Mic Bowman: otherwise those hang around forever [09:14] Robert Adams: we've been trying to get the 130K prim sims to work [09:14] Justin Clark-Casey: oooh, don't think I've heard of Jim Greensky before... (?) [09:14] Mic Bowman: he was an intern for me last summer & is now a "rotation engineer" working for me for the next month or two [09:15] Justin Clark-Casey: well, I'm mentally gearing up to propose doing 0.6.7 soon, and a regular release schedule thereafter. I'm trying to work out a way that requires minimal input (since I want some chance of running it but I'm not guaranteed to have all that much time) [09:15] Justin Clark-Casey: it's been quite a long time since 0.6.6 [09:15] Mic Bowman: other than the packet pool growth... i think we can get shenlei up to 200K + prims [09:15] Justin Clark-Casey: that's a lot of prims [09:16] Robert Adams: takes a while for the viewer to load [09:16] Aaron Duffy is Online [09:16] Mic Bowman: when you send the initial update for a region with 100K prims, the packet pool starts to grow quickly [09:16] Justin Clark-Casey: I hear John is working on a c# -> cli compiler that's better suited to OpenSim's requirements? [09:16] Rob Willis: wow that took a while [09:16] Rob Willis: hell all [09:16] Justin Clark-Casey: not sure how much of that I got right [09:16] Justin Clark-Casey: hi rob [09:16] Fei Yeh is Online [09:16] Mic Bowman: with a couple users logging in simultaneously life gets very challenging [09:16] Mic Bowman: g'morning rob [09:17] Rob Willis: morning [09:17] Mic Bowman: i've turned down the bw on these regions until we figure out what the networking problems are [09:17] Mic Bowman: it should help to make sure you get the complete initial scene [09:17] Mic Bowman: hi aaron [09:18] Aaron Duffy: Hi... just waiting for chairs to rez :> [09:18] Justin Clark-Casey: hi aaron [09:18] Aaron Duffy: Hey Justin [09:18] Justin Clark-Casey: everything rezzed fairly quickly for me [09:18] Justin Clark-Casey: hi aaron [09:18] Fei Yeh: hello all [09:18] Mic Bowman: i think i have bw limited to 500Kbps per client [09:18] Mic Bowman: with the throttle set at 1 [09:19] Aaron Duffy: I entered the region with the draw distance at 512 and it was all downhill from there [09:19] Mic Bowman: it actually translates into about 300Kbps [09:19] Mic Bowman: which takes a while [09:19] Justin Clark-Casey: ha, my draw distance is a measly 96m :) [09:19] Mic Bowman: we're reverting the scene prioritizaiton patch to help the problem... [09:19] Justin Clark-Casey: really need to get better graphics capabilities [09:19] Mic Bowman: there are dragons in the networking code that are causing some big issues [09:19] Shenlei Winkler is Offline [09:19] Justin Clark-Casey: doesn't surprise me [09:20] Mic Bowman: there are at least three places where updates are throttled [09:21] Mic Bowman: any questions for this morning? [09:21] Rob Willis: did you get the log i sent? [09:22] Mic Bowman: i did... i haven't had a chance to do anything with it... it looks like an opensim problem rather than something related to our code [09:22] Justin Clark-Casey: did you guys do any work on a client launcher for cable beach? Or was that just prelim discussion last week? I can't remember [09:22] Rob Willis: i started to look at something [09:22] Rob Willis: in regards to the xml [09:22] Mic Bowman: i don't believe john has done anything else with it recently [09:23] Rob Willis: for loading and saving viewers and viewer paths [09:23] Mic Bowman: that's great rob [09:23] Rob Willis: im hoping to have something running this weekend [09:24] Rob Willis: at least something to work from [09:25] Mic Bowman: ok... let me know when/if you want testers [09:25] Rob Willis: ok [09:25] Robert Adams: bats out wandering the campus [09:25] Justin Clark-Casey: Still working on being able to come from osgrid to here with inventory intact (presumably in a non-hg manner?) [09:26] Mic Bowman: yes... [09:26] Rob Willis: i noticed i cannot teleport there anymore, is that correct? [09:26] Mic Bowman: the current CB work is looking at multipel authentication for an account [09:27] Mic Bowman: that will make it possible to link osgrid & scisim profiles [09:27] Mic Bowman: right now, you can log into scisim with your osgrid ID... inventory doesn't come though [09:27] Rob Willis: would there be some sort of master account to group other accounts? [09:27] Justin Clark-Casey: all this explicit trust stuff is never going to be an Internet-scalable solution [09:28] Mic Bowman: http://grid.sciencesim.com/login?openid_identifier=http://osgrid.org:8002/users/Mic_Bowman [09:28] Mic Bowman: justin: agreed [09:28] Mic Bowman: two things need to happen... first, we need to support anonymous identities [09:28] Mic Bowman: that's something we're working on... or at least on pseudo-identities [09:29] Mic Bowman: the second is that you need to have some sort of transitive trust [09:29] Justin Clark-Casey nods [09:29] Justin Clark-Casey: I think ultimately a lot of stuff is going to have to move client side. All this proxying through the region seems very difficult to secure [09:29] Mic Bowman: the anonymity assumed by today's internet works great when there is no state carried into a server [09:30] Mic Bowman: vw's carry too much state to have "no trust" [09:30] Justin Clark-Casey: yeah, state is the major thing [09:30] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm [09:30] Aaron Duffy: virtual world cookies? [09:30] Justin Clark-Casey: don't you think the need for any trust between virtual environments puts a big crimp on the network? [09:31] Mic Bowman: if its pairwise... certainly [09:31] Justin Clark-Casey: would you say that the web has the same trust structures in place? [09:31] Mic Bowman: however... organizations like verisign have created an indirection that works [09:31] Mic Bowman: what i envision is that there will be federations that ensure some level of appropriateness for their members [09:31] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, I think I see what you mean. Pairwise trust won't scale but trust with a comon third party migh, and might be necessary [09:32] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm [09:32] Mic Bowman: and then the federations manage trust [09:32] Justin Clark-Casey: might [09:32] Mic Bowman: yeah... [09:32] Justin Clark-Casey: I still not a fan of such federation though - smells of balkanization [09:32] Mic Bowman: so you might have an organization that will rubber stamp opensim grids that adhere to certain content protection standards [09:33] Mic Bowman: and then each member "trusts" anyone rubberstamped by the org [09:33] Robert Adams: google will be glad to federate us all [09:33] Mic Bowman: possibly... [09:33] Mic Bowman: or facebook [09:33] Justin Clark-Casey: would that trust restrict avatar movement or content movement? [09:34] Mic Bowman: possibly... but without some restrictions you can't share state safely [09:34] Mic Bowman: the approach we're taking is to provide some basic mechanisms so that the policies can be figured out [09:35] Mic Bowman: but i'd rather try it with running code [09:35] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. It's an interesting point - the ability to carry inventory and even rez does introduce considerations that you don't really find on the web [09:36] Mic Bowman: clearly... at some point we need to think about (and experiment with) ways we can improve the client to help [09:36] Justin Clark-Casey: hmmm, though I guess one always has to deal with people uploading inappropriate stuff to facebook/youtube/flickr, etc [09:36] Mic Bowman: sure... [09:36] Mic Bowman: and its not clear how far the parallels go [09:37] Mic Bowman: getting DRM to work is *Very* challenging... [09:37] Justin Clark-Casey: :) [09:37] Mic Bowman: i'd prefer to work on means to audit & let the legal system work [09:37] Justin Clark-Casey: yes, it's a fascinating topic [09:37] Mic Bowman: much easier and more flexible [09:38] Justin Clark-Casey: I suspect any attempt to engineer in DRM would be prone to failure anyway - I don't see it as a stable energy state [09:39] Mic Bowman: just to conclude on the hypergrid/cable beach discussion... [09:39] Mic Bowman: we're planning to build a two level trust system [09:40] Mic Bowman: hypergrid users will be pseudo-identified and allowed in some regions [09:40] Mic Bowman: and then there will be a means to use your local grid's identity (or someother identity) to fully authenticate yourself to the grid [09:41] Justin Clark-Casey: are you only allowing inbound hg users or outbound as well? [09:41] Justin Clark-Casey: by which I mean, hg users that have sciencesim as their 'home' grid [09:41] Mic Bowman: the "gateway" regions here are set up for hypergrid [09:41] Mic Bowman: but i haven't checked the outbound hypergrid recently [09:42] Mic Bowman: so you can hypergrid into the gateway regions [09:42] Mic Bowman: just not from there to the rest of scisim [09:42] Justin Clark-Casey: oh, okay [09:42] Justin Clark-Casey: just curious because of the problem of exposing the asset and inventory service access needed for hg [09:42] Mic Bowman: what we need is to get meerkat or something to handle the transparent relog [09:43] Justin Clark-Casey: Meerkat seems to be very in favour at the moment [09:43] Mic Bowman: they are solving the hypegrid problem in a different way [09:44] Mic Bowman: a much cleaner way for trust... [09:44] Mic Bowman: you "teleport" between grids by re-authenticating [09:44] Justin Clark-Casey: so more than just logging out of one grid and into another? [09:44] Mic Bowman: (behind the scenese) [09:44] Robert Adams: is Diva not working on Gridder any more? [09:44] Justin Clark-Casey: I'm pretty sure she is actively working on it [09:45] Mic Bowman: we can do a very ugly version of the same thing right now [09:45] Mic Bowman: or at least once we get the support for multiple inventory servers [09:45] Justin Clark-Casey: same thing as Meerkat or as grider? [09:45] Mic Bowman: meerkat... [09:45] Mic Bowman: bascially using the -multiple [09:45] Justin Clark-Casey: so they are doing more than just a relog? [09:46] Mic Bowman: no... [09:46] Justin Clark-Casey: rex were doing that more than a year ago, but not with such a slick interface [09:46] Mic Bowman: that's all they do... but they save passwords [09:46] Mic Bowman: correct [09:46] Mic Bowman: and i expect naali will ahve the support built in [09:46] Justin Clark-Casey: that's such a horrible hack [09:47] Mic Bowman: and hypergrid isn't? [09:47] Mic Bowman: architecturally... [09:47] Justin Clark-Casey: :) I think hg is more interseting but with fatal security flaws [09:47] Justin Clark-Casey: hence the need for gridder, as we know [09:47] Mic Bowman: the plan is to let you use your osgrid (or whatever openid provider you have) to re-authenticate [09:47] Justin Clark-Casey: hg is a cool hack ;) [09:48] Mic Bowman: with client cached tokens it can be done completely transparently [09:48] Justin Clark-Casey: I see. So the next step to obviate the need for saving passwords [09:48] Mic Bowman: chat lag? [09:48] Robert Adams: shared identity so you don't have to log into every grid you visit. Authentication happens automaticaly and invisibily [09:49] Mic Bowman: correct robert [09:49] Justin Clark-Casey: I think that path also naturally pushes services onto the client path rather than via the vw [09:49] Mic Bowman: yes... the client has to manage the authentication tokens and hand them out [09:49] Mic Bowman: think cookies for the web [09:49] Mic Bowman: in fact, john's current implementation is more or less that [09:50] Mic Bowman: if you can close your eyes to the ugliness... i just click links on the web to teleport between grids [09:50] Mic Bowman: same identity every where (and eventually the same inventory) [09:50] Justin Clark-Casey: yes. Identity is more than just a name thoguh - it's a profile too. Can that come up via openID too? [09:51] Mic Bowman: yes... [09:51] Mic Bowman: the profile should reference a collection of services [09:52] Justin Clark-Casey: one eventually has to work around the limitation of the LL protocol to Guid identifiers rather than uris or similar [09:52] Mic Bowman: if we're willing to fix the protocol... then there's LOTS of better ways to work this [09:53] Justin Clark-Casey: yes [09:53] Justin Clark-Casey: I agree [09:53] Mic Bowman: back to the need for a viewer we can really hack on [09:53] Mic Bowman: don't suppose looking glass is close? [09:53] Justin Clark-Casey: indeed :) [09:54] Justin Clark-Casey: not the sun project I presume [09:54] Mic Bowman: robert? care to comment? [09:54] Robert Adams: no, a viewer in C# that uses Ogre [09:55] Robert Adams: I'm integrating it into Radegast so one has chat and inventory ,etc [09:55] Justin Clark-Casey: lookingglassviewer.org? [09:55] Robert Adams: that's the one [09:55] Justin Clark-Casey: hmm, it's in my list of bookmarked viewers but I must have forgotton it :) [09:55] Robert Adams: lots of optimizations needed, but it getting to the point that one can hack on it to do new things [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey: you're the lead dev, rob? [09:56] Robert Adams: yes, it''s my project [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey: ahhh, I remember your ml posts now... :) [09:56] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry, bit slow today [09:56] Robert Adams: ref the earlier discussion about getting sleep :-) [09:57] Justin Clark-Casey: indeed :) [09:57] Robert Adams: but the goal is to get enough of a viewer that one can play with protocols, etc [09:58] Justin Clark-Casey: scene screenshots look pretty good already [09:58] Robert Adams: I've been thinking of building a new IClient to talk to LG [09:58] Robert Adams: I'm adding SkyX and Hydrax shortly (Ogre addins) that will give realistic sky and water [09:59] Robert Adams: but prim generation, placement and texturing is working [09:59] Robert Adams: there are the usual performance problems -- LL prims make for lots of graphics batches [10:00] Justin Clark-Casey: any effect of using c#? Or does it not matter since all the heavy lifting is down in the ogre libs anyway? [10:01] Robert Adams: the design is to use C# for comm and UI and world management and let the C++ code do the rendering [10:02] Robert Adams: so the C# is not involved in the rendering at all other than giving the mesh info and update instructions [10:02] Justin Clark-Casey: do you end up writing any c++? [10:02] Robert Adams: yes, I have a C++ interface between my managed code and Ogre [10:02] Robert Adams: I also had to figure out how to dynamically load content into Ogre so a lot of code makes that happen [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: cool. I hear that one of the chief Ogre guys is quite interested in OpenSim [10:03] Justin Clark-Casey: Guy living on Jersey? [10:03] Robert Adams: that's a problem at the moment since prebuild doesn't handle C++ and there are both 32 bit and 64 bit systems [10:03] Robert Adams: I don't know of him [10:04] Robert Adams: I'll put something in the Ogre showcase and see what happens [10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: sorry I don't know the name, I just heard that in passing. But I know at least that one guy is aware of (and I think interseted) in it [10:04] Justin Clark-Casey: so you could well get a good response [10:05] Robert Adams: and I need someone who knows graphic shaders... not an area I know [10:05] Justin Clark-Casey: good graphics people always seems to be a bottleneck - relatively more people available to write all the easy server code :) [10:06] Robert Adams: for sure, but these days one does a lot of any graphics work in the shaders [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: interesting. Anyway, I need to go. Thanks for letting me witter on. This is one of the effects that caffeine has on me [10:07] Robert Adams: bye Justin [10:07] Aaron Duffy: later [10:07] Justin Clark-Casey: bye rob, aaron, mic, folks. I'll leave with the sinking in the floor feeling [10:08] Mic Bowman: bye all [10:08] Robert Adams: LOL